|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
74
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 13:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:If projectiles were as perfectly balanced with lasers, then why/how can an AC Harbinger compete with a Pulse Harbinger?
Or how about projectile Abbaddon's being equal to or better than laser ditto?
if you're losing to an autocannon harb in a pulse harb, you should probably get your F1 button checked out. same for if your hellcat fleet is losing to arty-abaddons.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
74
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 15:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Hirana Yoshida wrote:So to you, an imbalance should only be considered such if it exists on fleet level?
really im still stuck on how exactly the **** you lose to an autocannon harb in a pulse harb. harb gets an actual dmg bonus, how can you possibly welp to someone with the equivalent of BC 0? i mean, i was already 95% sure you were blithering idiot, but thanks for confirming you're bad at spaceships as well.
Quote:"Hellcats" only work with a minimum number, same as the AHAC Swarm, same as Arty Swarms (although significantly lower number) .. but what of the majority of fights that are conducted at numbers below fleet level. That is where projectiles break the game completely thanks to allowing full gank + tank + damage selection + cap independence.
If you didn't want to discuss fleets, you shouldn't have brought up arty-abaddons and how you thought they were better than Hellcats. I mean, I knew you were talking out of your ass, but might not want to be so obvious about deflecting once someone with a clue about fleet fights posted. At any rate, arty-abaddons only work with a significant numerical advantage against a close range fleet comp. This has nothing to do with dumb, irrelevant (in fleet) **** like "hurr, I'm trimarked so I get kited" and everything to do with unbonused artillery being able to kill only approximately 3 properly tanked ships a minute. Granted, properly tanked means like 150K EHP for shields or 200K EHP for armor and in the early stages of the fight, they can very well volley any subcap or an undertanked carrier. But Hellcats can kill upwards of 10 per minute and sustain this killing more or less indefinitely, unlike artyboats, which very rapidly fade as you lose the critical mass necessary to volley your primaries.
Additionally, Hellcats can continue killing under triage reps, whereas arty has the choice to either volley the triage carrier (not actually as hard as it sounds) or bail out.
Anyway, enough about fleets, since, despite your insistence on bringing up fleet comps, you want to talk about solo/small gang stuffz: -"Full" tank for a shield Cane is around 48k EHP against MF (assuming you fit a point, ofc). -a plated and trimarked (2x because 1 ACR necessary for med neut and cap booster) Harb with two heatsinks gets around 62k EHP against Barrage/Fusion (more against everything else) -that shield cane, with 3 gyros, 2 TEs and Warriors does about 676 DPS firing RF Fusion -the plated Harb, with 2 heatsinks, HPLs and full flight of Valkyries does 663.
That's around a 2% difference in DPS, with a (roughly) 25% difference in tank. If the shield Cane immediately closes to neut range, it will lose the DPS/EHP race. Even with a small cap booster, you can keep the tackle and turrets on a Harb running, easily.
But wait, there is kiting too, right?
-shield Cane loads Barrage, does 555 DPS -plated Harb loads Scorch, also does 555 DPS. -shield Cane does 405 DPS at 20km. -plated Harb still does 555 at 20km.
Unless the Harb is ******** and lets the Cane sit way out (beyond Scorch optimal, i.e. point range) and eat away it's buffer without trying to warp, it should be able to win or force the Cane to warp off.
This is completely ignoring the fact that the only good time to swap ammo in a Cane is before you are engaged. The 10 seconds of DPS you lose swapping from EMP to Barrage or whatever will not be regained in any reasonable timeframe, unless the Harb literally said "**** it" to any resist mods and is running around with a 10% EXP hole. In comparison, how long does it take to swap from MF to Scorch? Maybe three seconds? Perhaps five if you have fat fingers?
Quote:Metrics never lie (only the interpretation thereof) and projectile platforms have ruled the killboards (as in making up 75+% of all ships/weapons used) ever since the buff .. there is no way to spin that into "projectiles are fine" .. but you are of course welcome to try.
Killboards reflect the current fleet doctrines of major 0.0 entities more than anything. Fleet fights heavily, so very heavily, favor DPS applied across a broad spectrum of ranges. Canes are very much the exception that proves this rule, since the Goon FCs are actually pretty good at what they do and are constantly getting bounces and warpins, but still managing to lose fights when they outnumber their opponent, just because autocannons are barely workable in fleets.
The exceptions are Angel FOTM, which is more about the illusion of invulnerability via speed and the perception that flying nano is more skillful than other forms: i.e. how many Cynas have you seen die stupidly to a single well-flown nano-Drake or Drams dying to Hookbills and Daredevils?
Quote:PS: All laser boats are defeated with one hand tied behind ones back with just two modules, EM Hardener and Neutralizer. So if you lose to a pulse anything flying anything other than frigs (Slicers > All) you need to go back and revisit the basics.
Because nobody flies with a cap injector right? And an EM hardener fits well on my 2x LSE Cane. It also certainly does extremely well against MF which is half thermal. Which I'm going to be eating, since you apparently want me to close up and apply neuting. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 00:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:Mfume Apocal - 1) you are a 2010 character (or post with your main), 2) you spend too much time in EFT and don't give enough thought to larger strategic concerns. On paper it may seem balanced (its not) but reality and what you see out there speak volumes. Nice try though.
"you're wrong because you've been playing this game for 18 months!" Seriously, is that the best you have?
WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane WTB 700 DPS at 70km Maelstrom
Quote:Minmatar are not the hard-mode race, they are the I-win race.
I never said Minmatar was hard-mode, because that would be silly. Hard mode is Gallente.
Quote:Then you run off to things about fleets and how KBs are not an indicatior of anything and so on. . .
Your boy Veshta claimed that arty-abaddons were better than Hellcats, not me. I can't imagine what kind of cripple fight would lead one to believe that, but I assure you, from hands-on, non-EFT experience it's not true. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 07:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: You are hardcore addicted to FOTM. And your tears are delicious.
I don't actually fly many AC boats. Does this apply to me as well?
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
78
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 19:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Someone on page 3 or 4 seriously argued that Barrage and Scorch have the same ranges. Since it, perhaps, didn't get the point across the first time:
WTB 500 DPS at 24km Cane. WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest.
I don't know how you guys could use an autocannon ship at any sort of range and say with a straight face, "Barrage is about as good as Scorch." |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
78
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 20:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Why are you only looking at DPS, Alpha and Dam type are just as important.
DPS > Alpha. Alphafleets only own Hellcats when they outnumber them more than 3 to 1. Even with a gross advantage in numbers, in the time that an alphafleet would kill 10 ships, pulse fleets would kill 30. In my experience, ofc. (taking Gem, drone regions invasion, clearing out Venal, the DRF counter-invasion, etc.)
You are free to provide links to all the alphafleet vs. hellcat fights you've experienced in RvB however. I'd be interested in see how it plays out there.
Quote:Well I say that those Artillery Ships are just damn to good. So Projectiles meet your dream stats almost dead on with even a few improvements just not Barrage.
In literally every fight artillery BS have run into equal numbers of pulse BS (Hellcats or Panic Geddons) the artillery ships lost. And to get my "dream stats" for alpha damage I have to put my artillery boat well within Scorch optimal. This is not just Scorch L either, but Scorch M as well.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 23:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:We're still talking about fleets, yes?
Depends on how you define "fleet" because past a certain point, the 1400mm Pest and Muninn should be falling off that list as well. And who uses Sabres for fleets? More expensive for capabilities you don't need for a fleet dictor.
And that should be a 10MN Tengu. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 00:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:How do you define fleet?
More than 50 or so. At that level, you're looking at about 30-35 damage dealers. If those damage dealers are Pulse BS, they have enough alpha to pink-mist anything will less than 100K EHP, practically speaking and will do it at a pretty frightening rate. So the 1400mm Tempest, in spite of it's speed, sig and utility advantage, loses out to the Maelstrom as a fleet BS simply because of tank.
Quote:And don't you mean at a certain point everything BUT 1400mm X falls off the list? (I guess it depends on which side has them)
The Huginn serves a pretty crucial role and can be fairly survivable in big fights if you're willing to invest the SP and isk into a off-grid booster and faction webs. Scimitar works as well.
As for stuff that I wouldn't put on the list, I personally don't think the Broadsword is too different from the Onyx tbh. Properly fit, both have similar enough stats I'm pretty hesitant to put either one over the other. Anything past small gangs (10 or 11 guys), the Rapier is just a bad Huginn. Hounds are pretty much go-to bombers simply because of the explosive damage bonus; if armor tanks had an EM weakness, people would be singing the Purifier's praises instead.
Of course, all this changes in small(er) fights.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 05:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:Also in the TD changes were before the TE changes - yes. But that is where the crying started. There is no way that Minmatar should get a low-slot mod that acts as a second damage mod - not even you can argue that that is balanced.
1. Amarr get a mid-slot mod that acts a second damage mod. 2. Even with the Amarr ship having 0 TCs and a Minmatar ship having 2 TEs, lasers still project damage better.
Quote:Finally - ship lists of best and worst and this and that are not arguments. . .
WTB 700 DPS at 60km Tempest. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
79
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 09:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Come off it, that's a ridiculous statement. The benefit that a ship gains from a TE is dependent on the nature of the ship, its weapons and fittings and its slot layout.
Saying that TEs work the same for everyone is like giving a knife and fork to a man with no arms and saying "Just use them the way that I do".
Are you saying the TE doesn't help pulse with damage projection? |
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
81
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 12:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:I'm saying that it helps different ships to different extents.
OK.
Quote:Are you saying that a blasterboat gets the same benefit from a TE as a AC/pulse ship
Hell no. Which is part of the reason blasters specifically and Gallente in general are hard-mode EVE.
Quote:...and that all these ships have the same ability to fit the same number of TEs?
If shield tanked, *most* can fit the traditional 2+2 or 3+1. Higher damage is supposed to be the advantage of shield tanking, so I see nothing wrong with this. For ships locked into armor-tanking by virtue of bonuses, they (typically) have mids for TCs, which do the same thing as TEs. See: Hellcat Abaddon.
Quote:And don't say "yes they all get 30% falloff from the first TE" That's just a number in EFT, it's the usefulness of the ship in game that is important.
I agree. Pulse BS still rule the day in fleet fights, shield tanked Zealots can ruin your day out to 50km (thanks to TEs!) and even a plated Harb with no TE/TCs still projects damage better over relevant solo/small gang ranges than a Hurricane. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
81
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 22:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Onictus wrote:And you goddamn sure said falloff was inferior ....which belied ACs effectiveness against pulse lasers at sane ranges
Inferior to optimal. It's not the same as saying falloff is competely useless. It's clearly not, especially when you can actually do decent damage outside of web/scram range (thanks to TEs!), but it's not competitive with Scorch by any means.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The argument becomes AC are too close to Pulse lasers considering all the other advantages Minmatar get.
Ruah Piskonit wrote:That is something Mini ships have not lost - they still remain highly versatile in fittings and options. Hybrids and Lasers are both one trick ponies and impose very server load-outs and tactical considerations on the ship/pilot. If not, then it will remain imba because it keep all the advantages and loses non of its disadvantages - with the exception of mass battleship fleet fights.
You have the only short range weapons in the game that is competitive with long range weapons outside a small gang setting. This is quite a massive advantage and no amount of exceptionalism is going to get you off the hook of being top dog in one of the most common PvP scenarios in the game.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
82
|
Posted - 2011.11.06 18:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote:Btw, arti is not the problem - art is difficult to fit and fills the high alpha/low dps niche well. Its ACs that are broken when married to the ships.
I well and truly hope that Veshta wasn't claiming that an autocannon Abaddon beats a pulse Abaddon then. Because that's really silly. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 00:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:True kiting - being both faster while outranging you - is uniquely Winmatar, and there's no way to beat it, which is what's causing all the whine. You don't stand a chance.
You don't hear people call amar boat with Scorch "kiting," because it's slower. You can eventually catch up if you don't pop first. You stand a chance.
"Whenyou're flying an HML nanodrake at 30km and pwning face, that's not 'kiting', it's a method whereby you use range to mitigate damage while leveraging superior damage projection of your own. This is very similar to kiting, but since it's not a Minmatar ship, using Minmatar weapons, it's not."
Quote:Yes, you can nano fit to kit something... other than nano Minmatar. The speed at which your nano fit levels off will always be slower than that of the equivalent Minmatar boat.
Hookbills kite Firetails, pretty easily. Nanodrake kites AC Cane, pretty easily. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 08:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Discussion veers towar the topic of hybrids:
DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE
lol
?
so you agree with goose99 that kiting is only possible with minmatar ships? |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
95
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 03:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Minmatar thread the needle between the two and are masters of neither. They can control the range though and either get under the Amarr's lasors or stay out of the range of blasters.
How is a Cane supposed to get under a Harb's lasers? Getting that close just turns the fight into a straight up DPS/EHP race, which your typical shield cane loses to a plated Harb. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
95
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 04:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:That's a crappy example as you have 250m+ ships shooting at eachother with weapons that have 125m resolution. Try cruiser to cruiser. The pulses will still hit but it's alot more 'barely scratched'.
Any example that compares Rupture to Omen is just going to wind up in the Rupture's favor because the Omen is terrible ship in need of several buffs.
EDIT: And now that I've checked, both of them are at or above the sig radius for medium guns. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
97
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 23:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:If I see an Amarr ship and I want to engage as Minmatar I'm going to get as close as I can for several reasons: 1) It's where my damage is best. 2) I'm just about guaranteed to have a nuet fitted. The Amarr ship may or may not. 3) Tracking as a tertiary reason. If the Amarr ship doesn't have a TE fit, if the pilot panicked and didn't switch to MF (Huge damage reduction at close range!)- there is a difference. It adds up. I'm going to squeeze every bit of advantage I can out of the conflict.
You earlier claimed that ACs dmg projection was OP given that Minmatar ships could easily disengage. A ship in medium neut range cannot easily disengage, since it's also essentially in scram/web range. You also not considering how a plated Amarr ship has significantly more EHP and not terribly less DPS, so reducing the fight to a straight line DPS/EHP race, plated Amarr wins it.
I use Harbs and Canes in my example because they are commonly flown, much more commonly than T1 cruisers.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
100
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 01:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Aside from the fact that I'd load barrage, overheat the point and kite the Harb to death in that very hypothetical scenario (most likely, I wouldn't engage at all), I don't have a reaon to doubt your maths.
A Harb does more DPS at point range than a Cane does. By far. A Cane will probably lose a DPS/EHP race to a (plated) Harb at 0. It will definitely lose at 24km.
Quote:That's why you see Cane blobs, but no Harb blobs.
The only reason you see AC Cane blobs is 2x neuts. And even then the fleet comp is literally called Welpfleet, because it sucks for standup fighting and they know it. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
101
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 07:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
[quote=Large Collidable Object]In fleet engagements they are gimped at range - ACs are able to deal (admittedly nimble) DPS way beyond scorch range and in gangs with pilots following primaries properly, that would make the cane fleet win. I admit that's theorycrafting, as I've never seen a Harb fleet fighting a Cane fleet (because nobody flies harb fleets for whatever weird reason ;)).Quote:
Nobody flies Harb fleets because the Drake can sport more tank and better damage projection while having a similar speed (PDU fit). Canes sidestep this meta because the 2x medium neuts and superior EFT DPS make up for the lost projection when it comes to ganking caps/supers.
Also: I'm not sure where this meme of "autos outrange pulse" got started, but it simply isn't true. A (220mm, 2x TE) Vaga might have 40km of falloff and this is a considerable range advantage over a Harb, but a HPL (+2x TE/TC) Zealot sports an optimal of 44km. Apples to apples, pulse have more range, period.
[quote]The question from an FCs POV is: Why would a gang of Canes fight an equally numbered gang of Harbs? If my scout reports an equally sized Harb gang, I wont engage unless I know all my pilots have barrage in their holds and know to bounce to a safespot as soon as they take a sliver of shield damage and the Harb gang is comprised of idiots (most likely, since they bring a gang of Harbingers).
...
Put yourself into the situation of the FC and you'll see why nobody runs Harb gangs.
This entire scenario you have laid out is less about tanking styles or range bonuses and more about the fact that in EVE, most gang PvP is semi-consensual. I've slipped out from nanogangs in a plated BS fleet before, simply because avoiding PvP in EVE is easy if you're prepared (in our case, false scout jumps and delay bubbles on gates). Even when unprepared, armor gangs are perfectly capable of escaping, insofar as they are typically built to ride out the 60 seconds necessary to deaggro and jump/dock. |
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
101
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 11:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:That's why nobody flies Harbs - not because of some fitting skills every one-year old has maxed anyway.
I like how you ignore my post regarding this matter, about how a Drake has more range, better tank and similar speed. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
101
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 19:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Number of 'Nerf Gallente!' threads in past year: None Number of 'Nerf Amarr!' threads in past year: None Number of 'Nerf Caldari!' threads in past year: None Number of 'Nerf Minmatar!' threads in past year: Countless!
That's saying something.
There have been a substantial number of nerf Caldari threads, some of them started by the same Amarrian supremacists arguing that projos are overpowered.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
101
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 21:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:The problem with minmatar, as far as I can tell, is falloff bonuses. The bonuses to falloff (10%/level) are from a time when TEs didn't give their insane bonuses themselves (which was also a mistake IMO, and one based on the laughable idea that falloff is only half as useful as optimal)...
How is that laughable? All things being equal, shooting out to 99% of your optimal is 100% of your DPS. Shooting out to 99% of your falloff is... 40%? |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 11:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote: No. There's been 'Nerf Drake!', 'Nerf Tengu!' and 'Nerf Falcon', but never 'Nerf Caldari!'
By that standard, this isn't actually a "Nerf Minmatar" thread (despite the name) since he's only asking for nerfs to TEs and autocannons. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 11:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Oh yeah, this is most certainly a Nerf Gallente thread. I mean, what other race uses autocannons?
What other race has a Drake, Tengu and Falcon? |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 12:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Myrms are seen with ACs, because ACs are OP. Rokhs are seen with ACs, because ACs are OP. Punishers are seen with ACs, because ACs are OP. Feroxes are seen with ACs, because ACs are OP. Any ship without ROF/damage bonuses are seen with ACs, because ACs are OP.
Also, Gallente aren't seen with Drakes, Amarr aren't seen with Tengus and Falcons aren't seen anywhere but Caldari. By your logic, because these Caldari ships aren't being used by other races, they mustn't be as overpowered as Minmatar.
Myrms are seen with pulse lasers. Feroxes are seen with pulse lasers. I've never seen a Punisher except as a cyno alt. And I've never seen a Rokh with autocannons. Arties, yeah, ACs, never.
And if you'd like, I can dig up the old "nerf HML" threads we've all seen. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 06:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jaxemont wrote:That's my main annoyance with Minmatar at least. How come only one race gets to be easy to fit, while the others are a nightmare?
Caldari missile boats are not particularly hard to fit. That being said, the Drake requires fitting mods for a ganglink, while the Cane does not. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 11:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Jaxemont wrote:That's my main annoyance with Minmatar at least. How come only one race gets to be easy to fit, while the others are a nightmare? Caldari missile boats are not particularly hard to fit. That being said, the Drake requires fitting mods for a ganglink, while the Cane does not. not hard ... sure... lets compare cerb vs vaga cerb with 5 ham+mwd remain 312 cpu 76 pg vaga with 5 425mm ac+mwd remain 349cpu 225pg both of them are shield tanking ships and bcu needs more cpu than gyros so if you want to fit a shield extender cerb needs some pg rigs/modules/implants yeah totally not hard to fit,the other caldari ships are the same dumb ignorant matar fanboy
That's because HAMs are harder to fit on Caldari than HMLs. You'd have problems fitting an arty Vaga too.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
124
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 22:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Asuka Smith wrote:I think people are in denial because if minmatar get nerfed they don't have anything else trained.
This is a bad post.
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
145
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 10:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Emily Poast wrote: Matar got a new very useful ammo that made their prior advantage even better. Matar will continue to be used for all of the same reasons - the biggest being they have the lowest risk to losing their ship as a race. GTFO tank is the best in the game.
You realize Hail still has a falloff and tracking penalty, yes? |
|
|
|
|